Curse

Made In Ascalon · Dec 01, 2006, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by furbat

To be honest +20 armor to the team was half the reason paragons were good.

You know paragons are broken when people think that half the reason paragons are good is because of a skill from a different class.

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The nerf to energizing finale and incomming reduced the effectiveness of paragons a great deal.

They went from being insanely imbalanced to balanced. So yeah, I suppose it did reduce their "effectiveness".

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Now, they no longer feed casters energy and provide defense. Now paragons do what? Bond with angelic bond, support team damage or provide heal party skills with motivation.

Oh please. Put some friggin points into tactics for once, and you can do the same thing you always have with it. Spam GFTE and casters will still get a pretty good amount of energy, it just won't be three energy for all of them every 5 seconds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RitualEros

GG Anet for listening to the crying of pvper's and making paragons completly useless pve. As always, job well done!

Maybe you're completely useless, but my paragon certainly isn't. If you limited your ability to play to broken skills, then I doubt you're a very good player.

martialis · Dec 01, 2006, 06:10 PM // 18:10

In preparation for Christmas: What the hell??

Can someone explain to me what people are crying about, since they don't explain? You're running out of energy in PvE? You have 10 seconds of down time every minute, instead of 9 seconds? You're dying too much?

Incoming is almost useless in PvE and Energizing Finale is too much work.

Quote:

Maybe you're completely useless

...

ubard · Dec 01, 2006, 06:13 PM // 18:13

come on... they mainly nerfed horribley broken skills. Paragons should remain a team build choice, like including a degen ranger... or a dom mesmer... or most any other single character build. NOT running a paragon will no longer gimp your build into oblivion.

no matter what Anet nerfs people are always whining... it's like you don't expect a nerf to change anything...

how anybody could even hope in the very corner of their mind that Engergizing Finale wouldn't be nerfed is pretty much just confusing to me. As much fun as spamming skills like i'm made of energy, energy management should be more than "hey now, keep that shout on me."

cheers.

Kaane · Dec 01, 2006, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubard

NOT running a paragon will no longer gimp your build into oblivion.

BINGO!

These skills were overpowered and had not only made Paragons running these skills vital, it'd also been a barrier to Paragons built different ways. It's now balanced.

Takeko Nakano · Dec 01, 2006, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Actually Paragons didn't need a major nerf. What ANet needed to do was limit the number of Paragons that could be in a HA build. Seriously dual paragons were the problem, so why not forbid them? Why nerf the entire profession, when you could just cap the number for PvP?

IT'S SO SIMPLE, BUT ANET FOR SOME REASON WANTS TO DO THINGS THE HARD WAY!!!!!

I don't mind the skill changes too much, but honestly I don't see why they always attack the profession and not deal with the way they are being used. Also I am really unhappy with what they've done to Watch yourself! You now need 11 Tactics points to get your +20 armour back. Seriously that is ridiculous. I think ANet should drop that down a bit by a point or two, so that Warriors get a REAL reward for using tactics. It isn't easy for Paragons to afford even 9 Tactics points.

B Ephekt · Dec 01, 2006, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by RitualEros

GG Anet for listening to the crying of pvper's and making paragons completly useless pve. As always, job well done!

Sort of ironic that you're crying about pvpers crying, right?

Honestly, if you think paragons are useless in pve you obviously haven't looked into the class very far.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takeko Nakano

Actually Paragons didn't need a major nerf. What ANet needed to do was limit the number of Paragons that could be in a HA build. Seriously dual paragons were the problem, so why not forbid them? Why nerf the entire profession, when you could just cap the number for PvP?

Because that's a stupid idea. Why would they limit the number of a certain class in a party just to indirectly address some broken skills? That seems horribly nearsighted and foolish, when you consider that they could simply... and this may sound really crazy, but... actually address the skills in question.

Quote:

IT'S SO SIMPLE, BUT ANET FOR SOME REASON WANTS TO DO THINGS THE HARD WAY!!!!!

More like Anet actually wants to approach skill balancing some with some form logic and sense.

Made In Ascalon · Dec 01, 2006, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by martialis

In preparation for Christmas: What the hell??

Can someone explain to me what people are crying about, since they don't explain? You're running out of energy in PvE? You have 10 seconds of down time every minute, instead of 9 seconds? You're dying too much?

Incoming is almost useless in PvE and Energizing Finale is too much work.

Energizing finale isn't any work. You put it on someone, then spam "Go for the eyes!" People are complaining about the energy gain not being broken anymore

Quote:

...

I speak the truth. If people think the class is useless, they tend to play it uselessly.

Saider maul · Dec 01, 2006, 09:52 PM // 21:52

lol i agree for the mostpart on the skill changes.
I dont understand the change to arie of zeal and we could have done without the increased energy cost to stand your ground, after all the paragon is a 2 pip E-regen.

Energizing finale was broken to an extent. it should have been set to 1-2 energy gain or to give back energy up to x amount similar to warrior's endurance.

Not broken but taken to a point of balance maybe even slightly underbalanced atm but we will see and adapt.

What other choice do we have.

Keilious Ahruhk · Dec 02, 2006, 04:51 AM // 04:51

I see people here speaking from the typical PvP perspective, "replace teh paragon with teh something teh else... teh!"

I, as most people probably, have no beef with this. The problem is PvE, there are people who have poured countless hours into their Paragon character, and now have it even more useless than before. You say that incoming is good now because it is only used to prevent spikes? In PvP, yeah, I like it that its now going to be used properly.
Though, how many monsters spike in PvE? Oh yeah, that's right, zero.

At the core of it, this just strengthens the idea that PvE and PvP skill actions/variables CANNOT be the same, due to how the game has changed.

Anet has decided to make PvE an important element of Guild Wars now, so in the opinion of many, the overall uselessness and inflexibility of Paragons in PvE is unacceptable.
Seriously, how many different, effective PvE builds are there now for paragon? Two? Maybe three, with slight skill variations accross them.

As I said before, I'm still having loads of fun with my Parascythe build, but I'm just pointing out that I see why people are becoming increasingly annoyed.

B Ephekt · Dec 02, 2006, 05:46 AM // 05:46

I primarily pvp, but I put a good amount of time and gold into my PVE Paragon (probably more than most pvers since I was making him pvp-ready), so don't push your sob story off on me. This game gets balanced for pvp, that's simply a fact of life for anyone who choses to play Guild Wars. People should be used to it by now.

A for the nerfs, I fail to see how Incoming losing 2 seconds hurts your pve experience in any significant way. Energizing and Aria of Zeal shouldn't hurt pve either, since monks hardly ever need any serious energy management. Watch Yourself needed a nerf, it was way too good. Most warriors in pve have a lot of Tactics anyway, so it actually got a little buff for those guys. For the people who liked to run it with 0 Tactics, well sorry, but most skills require attribute points to be worthwhile... this is just another one of them now.

I'm sorry, but I just refuse to believe that anyone who's actually spent some time playing a paragon, and actually understands the class, can say they're useless in pve now.

JoeKnowMo · Dec 02, 2006, 06:31 AM // 06:31

[QUOTE=Keilious Ahruhk]Anet has decided to make PvE an important element of Guild Wars now, so in the opinion of many, the overall uselessness and inflexibility of Paragons in PvE is unacceptable.
Seriously, how many different, effective PvE builds are there now for paragon? Two? Maybe three, with slight skill variations accross them.
/QUOTE]

I'm primarily a pve'er (altho I pay attention to pvp, cuz I learn a lot there) so let me say this:
There are about a dozen or more viable builds with a paragon. All of those builds are not released yet due to this being a new class.

A paragon has almost as much armor as a war and can gain energy (from adrenaline shouts) efficiently.
Can a warrior run Searing Flames in pve? No.
Can a war run Thunderclap? No.
Can a war spam Barrage? No.
Can a war put Succor on 2 monks and not run out of energy? No.

You still have unlimited IAS (Soldier's Fury or Aggressive Refrain), energy gain from adrenaline shouts/chants, awesome protection (They're on Fire, Blazing Finale, Anthem of Flame, Burning Refrain), daze (awe and stunning strike), a lot of deep wound options (vicious attack, merciless spear, etc.) terrific party heals (Song, Ballad, and Aria of Restoration), battery capabilities (Aria of Zeal, Zealous anthem, lyric of zeal), condition removal abilities (song of purif, purif finale, lyric of purif, cautery sig), spike support (anthem of fury, anthem of guidance, anthem of envy, Go for the eyes), can inflict cripple on multiple foes (crippling anthem), can deep wound multiple foes (It's just a flesh wound + plague sending), and more that my puny brain can't think of right now...

Let's not forget that you can have mending refrain on you w/o gimping your energy (like a mending wammo).

You should be glad that wars and rits aren't coming over here complaining about how the para ruined their niches.

Since you're using a scythe build, you can proly tell that a para axe build does more dps than a war.

There are still Angelic Bond builds, Cautery Sig builds, Focused Anger builds, Song of Restor builds, etc.

You lost 2s off Incoming and now you can't play pve anymore? Sure, I have to limit my aggro to 2 mobs instead of 4 since the update, but taking on 4 mobs w/o breaking a sweat is pretty overpowered.

Anet would not make change mid-season unless it was ruining a lot of things. As much as I love my paragon, I have to admit he was overpowered. As a longtime Rit player I can say that he's still way better than a Rit.

If ppl think that these few skill changes mean the end of the paragon, I can't complain since spear prices will drop

What would make the paragon extinct? If Anet had gimped the Leadership attribute or some other such insanity.

Right now, Paragons are running just fine.

lilnate22 · Dec 02, 2006, 07:10 AM // 07:10

oh wait he searing F. is still a good to go good job analnet..i mean arenanet! why not nerf that?

InfernalSuffering · Dec 02, 2006, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

I'm primarily a pve'er (altho I pay attention to pvp, cuz I learn a lot there) so let me say this:
There are about a dozen or more viable builds with a paragon. All of those builds are not released yet due to this being a new class.

A paragon has almost as much armor as a war and can gain energy (from adrenaline shouts) efficiently.
Can a warrior run Searing Flames in pve? No.
Can a war run Thunderclap? No.
Can a war spam Barrage? No.
Can a war put Succor on 2 monks and not run out of energy? No.

You still have unlimited IAS (Soldier's Fury or Aggressive Refrain), energy gain from adrenaline shouts/chants, awesome protection (They're on Fire, Blazing Finale, Anthem of Flame, Burning Refrain), daze (awe and stunning strike), a lot of deep wound options (vicious attack, merciless spear, etc.) terrific party heals (Song, Ballad, and Aria of Restoration), battery capabilities (Aria of Zeal, Zealous anthem, lyric of zeal), condition removal abilities (song of purif, purif finale, lyric of purif, cautery sig), spike support (anthem of fury, anthem of guidance, anthem of envy, Go for the eyes), can inflict cripple on multiple foes (crippling anthem), can deep wound multiple foes (It's just a flesh wound + plague sending), and more that my puny brain can't think of right now...

Let's not forget that you can have mending refrain on you w/o gimping your energy (like a mending wammo).

You should be glad that wars and rits aren't coming over here complaining about how the para ruined their niches.

Since you're using a scythe build, you can proly tell that a para axe build does more dps than a war.

There are still Angelic Bond builds, Cautery Sig builds, Focused Anger builds, Song of Restor builds, etc.

You lost 2s off Incoming and now you can't play pve anymore? Sure, I have to limit my aggro to 2 mobs instead of 4 since the update, but taking on 4 mobs w/o breaking a sweat is pretty overpowered.

Anet would not make change mid-season unless it was ruining a lot of things. As much as I love my paragon, I have to admit he was overpowered. As a longtime Rit player I can say that he's still way better than a Rit.

If ppl think that these few skill changes mean the end of the paragon, I can't complain since spear prices will drop

What would make the paragon extinct? If Anet had gimped the Leadership attribute or some other such insanity.

Right now, Paragons are running just fine.

That pretty much sums up what I was gunna say. Im probably a more experience pve paragon, having beaten the game and all, yet this lessens their effectiveness zero to nil for me. However, another point I would like to say is that since paragons are the COMMANDER/GENERAL of the group you need to think like that. Most people are looking for way too much synergism in the paragon and its secondary itself. Paragons have great synergy with MANY CLASSES and you should use it. This means that you should use many skills from other classes in you GROUP BUILD. Put wy on ur warrior, let your mesmer handle energy management, and do wat paragons do best and COMMAND.

Blkout · Dec 03, 2006, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Actually Watch Yourself improved for my Warrior since I run 13 in Tactics, I now get more armor than before the patch.

JackDeath · Dec 03, 2006, 01:49 AM // 01:49

The nerf is a pain but paragon is still good in pve just got mine to Legendary survior (3) and completed all missions with just heros and npc .
Its was so easy.

OlMurraniKasale · Dec 03, 2006, 05:39 AM // 05:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackDeath

The nerf is a pain but paragon is still good in pve just got mine to Legendary survior (3) and completed all missions with just heros and npc .
Its was so easy.

Then please dear gods in heaven, share your build in the Paragon build forum! I went through the game with my Paragon, shuffling builds and doing great with each. Wizzed through them is the actual phrase I'm thinking of.

As of the update, I get slaughtered right and left. I don't even have the nerfed-4 in my skill bar. I'm lost because I don't know why my paragon went to hell.

I am getting slaughtered. I can't get anywhere near the Realm of Torment. Bad player I guess.

JackDeath · Dec 03, 2006, 07:16 AM // 07:16

Ok mate here are some of the things I do

Never try and finish a mission the first time thats the key , always watch and learn that the enemy has instore for you.

If it looks like a trap it is

I use the full range of skills depending on what iam facing
Like the last mission for example I used balanced stance because of the knock downs and it worked very well. I also made the heros take that stance.I the end that was one of the easy missions ehhehe

I try and be a commander of a army telling them when to attack and when to run and when to sit and wait.

Give your heros the best stuff like my MM Hero has max death rune of course but he also has bloodstain boots and a superior vigor in fact all my hero's have a Superior Vigor on them.He also uses The Nightbringer or Ghial's Stall depending if we are up against enemy MM's.

Look for skills that help the team you have picked and a paragon can realy be a team player.
Good team player skills for your hero's and npc's
Go for The Eyes ,Stand Your Ground ,Anthem of Flame,Song of Purification and Watch Yourself still works well with 9 points in it.

Fall Back works well in some missions when you need to run past the mobs too

Look for me in game if ya need a hand with skills on a tuff mission.
Sunspears Goddess [AUST]

Div · Dec 03, 2006, 10:01 AM // 10:01

I don't see why everyone is crying over a few skill nerfs from the paragon. It is not going to make a big difference in pve, and for those who think it will, choose other skills to use then. all anet did was make overpowered skills less powerful, and i'm not feeling sorry for anyone who exploits overpowered skills and then whines like a baby when they can't abuse it anymore. if you can't deal with it, then try another profession? if you can't deal with nerfs/buffs, then quit the game and do something else with your life.

Keilious Ahruhk · Dec 03, 2006, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

I don't see why everyone is crying over a few skill nerfs from the paragon. It is not going to make a big difference in pve, and for those who think it will, choose other skills to use then. all anet did was make overpowered skills less powerful, and i'm not feeling sorry for anyone who exploits overpowered skills and then whines like a baby when they can't abuse it anymore. if you can't deal with it, then try another profession? if you can't deal with nerfs/buffs, then quit the game and do something else with your life.

Heck, if people DO choose other skills and find a way to make say...

"Brace Yourself!"
"Can't Touch This!"
"Help Me!"
"Make Haste!"
Song of Concentration
Angelic Protection
Awe
Enduring Harmony
"The Power is Yours!" {E} (Don't bring up focus swapping, its still terrible)
Leader's Zeal
Lyric of Zeal/Lyric of Purification
Purifying finale
Song of Power
Harrier's Toss
Unblockable Throw
Stunning Strike
or
Wearying Spear

...So much as remotely useful in PvE, I'll be happy.

pah01 · Dec 03, 2006, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

I just read those skill updates:

Aria of Zeal: Increased casting time to 2 seconds.
Energizing Finale: Increased the Energy cost to 10 and reduced the amount of energy gained per shout or chant to 1.
"Incoming!": Increased Energy cost to 10 and decreased duration to 1..5 seconds.
"Stand Your Ground!": Increased energy cost to 10.

COME OFF IT! Now my Paragon is pretty new and not got too far through the game, although I only use one of these skills it REALLY gets on my nerves that this sort of thing has already begun. I swear to god there was no need for this.

Energising Finale was retardedly broken. I dont think you realise how broken it was. It meant that monks could afford to do everything they wanted.

The best example i could give was this.

We were playing esoteric warriors.

Dorm kept shaming me before the spike. I had the excess energy to trigger shame every single freaking time so that I could respond on time.

EDIT: This was from one frigging paragon.

This is how you know that the skilll was completely RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed.

Joe